Hey Matthias hope things are going well. Hopefully you’ve found a cool new research and writing project. Thanks for the critique on the outline. The main reason I joined the critiquing site was that I wanted to get from a trash story idea to a novel draft. I’ve at least got the first chapter almost on track, so I’ve some free time to work through your response.
If it comes across as a manifesto I’ve still got some work to do. I was hoping to make more of a discussion starter. The target audience for the writing is people needing encouragement to interact better with the spirits helping God. I’m imagining this would mainly be people that others will try to class as ‘disillusioned Christians’ or people wanting to find out about God but Christians have been getting in the way.
Your comments made me reflect on the unreasonable demands that faith statements have to accomplish. They seem to need to make an agreed list of beliefs for people to talk about and organise around. The trouble is in doing so they often make a box to put not just God in, but all the wonders and mysteries of the universe into.
One of the first points you made is that there needed to be a better weight of doctrine in the writing (so I’ll start with Bible stories and see if I can avoid too much boxing of awesomeness).
I think most church organisations have default basics writings that they give more weight to. For example a lot of organisations ‘throw out’ or dilute the writings people call old testament, instead of the replaced law/guidelines in it.
To work through this I guess I’d better pull examples from what would be Dezahnite basics. That means pulling out the best examples I can think of from stories about Moses, Elijah and Jesus (Mark’s record will be the basic in this case) working to help God get things done.
You seemed to find the idea of referring to Sir God as new. People have been given replacements to pass as God since time began. I think there is still a need to help people re-examine the potential to really be involved with the awesomeness of what God has set in motion.
A decent place to start exploring this is the time when Moses was taking care of his father-in-law’s sheep.
Sir’s God’s angel sets up as fire in a bush communication channel to the heavens. As Moses goes to rubber neck, God lets him know to keep his distance and take his sandals off, because he’s on holy ground. God introduces himself as the God that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob followed.
To paraphrase further, God said He’d seen His people being worn down by taskmasters. He felt for them and wanted to make them a better life elsewhere.
As far as I can tell, when Moses found out God wanted him to be involved with this, he started questioning all the details. It got to the point where Moses questioned what name he would introduce God by. God seemed to get annoyed and almost say that He was Himself; the God of his ancestors, like it was really obvious.
It’s pretty well known about the rough outline of what happened when Moses went back to the Israelites. So let’s jump to when Israel has fought their way back to the land they came from. Solomon has established shrines made for all his wives’ religions and Jeroboam has made golden calves for the ten Israelite tribes he ruled.
Things were messed up and then the new king, Ahab, makes that look like nothing. He marries the Sidonian king’s daughter, Jezebel. He lets her appoint prophets for the Sidonian religion that hunt down Sir’s prophets.
During this time God has been aiding Elijah to escape. Eventually Elijah is told to head back and challenge the self-harm prophets to an altar face off. Elijah wins the altar face off because God sends fire. This clears things up for the Israelites and the four hundred false prophets are killed. He then runs for his life as the Jezebel threatens to end him.
Elijah’s had enough of everything and wants to call it quits. He goes to sleep under a broom tree a day’s journey into the wilderness. God’s angel wakes and feeds him a couple of times. Then Elijah walks forty days on that food to the same mountain Moses saw the burning bush at. He spends the night in a cave there.
God sends a message to Elijah asking him what he’s doing there.
Elijah says he’s been zealous for Sir God of Heaven’s Armies, because the Israelites had given up on His agreement, torn down the altars and killed His prophets. He thought he was alone and a wanted man.
He is told to stand on the mountain before Sir.
Sir passes by and a massive wind tears into the mountain, smashing rocks to pieces. Sir isn’t in the wind. After that there is an earthquake. Sir isn’t the earthquake. Then there is a fire, Sir isn’t in that.
After the fire there is a whisper. When Elijah hears it he pulls his robe around his face and heads to the entrance of the cave. The voice asked what he is doing there.
Elijah says he’s been zealous for Sir God of Heaven’s Armies, because the Israelites’ had given up on His agreement, torn down the altars and killed His prophets. He thought he was alone and a wanted man.
Sir told him to anoint Hazael as king of Syria, Jehu as king of Israel and Elisha as his replacement. They were going to kill those in Israel that had bowed to and kissed the idol. Only seven thousand would be left. (I’m guessing most of those that had stuck with David’s ancestors in Judah weren’t affected by this).
Anyway, there is more stories of massacre, later on the rest of the Israelites are captured and taken away as slaves. They eventually rebuild and move back to some of their cities. By the time some cities are inhabited again, Israelites are scattered far and wide. There are now more foreigners living amongst them.
As far as the world is concerned they are under Roman rule. A lot of Israelites are waiting for ‘the One’ to destroy the Romans. Instead Jesus shows up.
He is born through supernatural insemination and grows up in a rough bit of Galilee. Once he is baptised, he starts by gathering some fishermen and heads to the temple. People are amazed his teaching has power to kick out tainted spirits. He relates with people at a heart level or with cryptic stories, rather than being another expert that tells them the latest update. Sometimes they struggle to understand what He’s getting at.
It pisses off a lot of the elders and people in leadership positions. They send people to trap Jesus as he teaches, heals and performs miracles for huge crowds. When Jesus has dealt to the traps those sent by organisations ask, he tells a story against them that has what I consider a useful glimpse of God in it.
Jesus tells about a man that plants a vineyard, makes a spot for a wine vat and set up defences around it. The man then leases it out to labourers and goes to a distant country. The vine matures. When it was time to get some of the vineyards fruit, the man sends someone. The guy is beaten and sent away with nothing.
Another is sent and they throw rocks at him. One rock gives the guy a head wound and he retreats. The next is killed. Many more are beaten or killed. Finally he sends his beloved, thinking that they will respect him. Instead they want to kill the son to inherit the vineyard.
Now this writing needs to change gear from doctrine, because I find if something is all doctrine it will distance people. Since you seem to want a story about me being disillusioned, I’ll put that here next.
Years ago when I had just left school I was pushed in the direction of what was teacher’s college. I was being moulded to be a bureaucrat that shaped children. I didn’t understand how to relate to God’s spirit.
I had let myself become pathetic enough to question an eight year old girl’s belief in God. I asked how she knew God was real.
She said she just knew.
Next let’s switch to one type of church language. Since you think I’ve written Paul of I’ll explain it to you in something like his language. My conscience then testified to the truth and I realised the wisdom of man that I had accepted, was mere foolishness.
That was one of the main things the led me to stop letting myself being pushed along and ask for help. I was in no place to be a teacher back then. I finally started to make steps to move from who I was told to be, to finding out how I could really help in the world around me.
People can make doctrine all day long. Unless they can get fruit to those helping the one that planted the vineyard, they are not part of the work. If they spend all their time talking about vineyard policy and rules, what relevance does that have to the harvest?
Next I’d like to point out another thing that I see as overlooked in a lot of organisations basics. Even when things were simple in the generations around Moses, people often couldn’t tell God and some of the angels apart when they showed up.
Even if it’s complicated, why would you let some big organisation or some random on the net to tell you who God is?
Isn’t listening for the ‘whisper’ that is relayed by Sir God’s ‘helper’ spirits the way you really work to help God?
I think that will be enough initial scripture reference to give you the ‘vibe’ of where I’m at. I’ll add any other references as needed.
The next thing I’d better work through is that you seem to have found one of the disillusioned categories that fits what you think I’m saying. I’ll use your, ‘it would help to tone it down’ notes as a guide of if I have the core idea of each concept for the discussion points sorted. It sounds like a lot of the writing hasn’t hit this mark.
When Jesus was working with the crowds and healing people, there were various times when those leaders keeping people in line, thought that he was outright blasphemous. Jesus also said that what he would do, would open up the way for even greater things to happen. So I guess in the next section of discussion I am aiming to at least hit the note of ‘delusional arrogance’.
How’s this for a one liner to aid discussions:
Organisations that rely on Paul’s letters are generally led by antiquated spiritual infants.
I feel Paul could be categorised as working on the basics for the ‘new’ churches of his time. In my opinion, organisations that stick to Paul’s beginning teaching for ‘new believers’ have serious issues.
I may as well cover another point that gets romanticised and split oddly at the end of chapter to hide the details. Paul was originally called Saul. His introduction is split and added to the end of another chapter. He takes care of the robes of those who agree with the experts, to aid them to stone Stephen, a guy that has been explaining the awesome news really well to people stuck in tradition.
To get to the more relevant points I think they miss the irony of using the teachings of a man that later fell out with ‘the way’ to chase struggling churches, as a structure for conforming believers. The biggest shame is that it can become a belief that these ‘saved people’ have the Jesus-resurrection-grace credit card to screw up as much as they want.
Paul spent years developing the teachings to suit the people of the time. To make another generalisation his teaching worked really well for both the Jews that liked to talk about the history of God actions and the Greeks that liked to debate the essence of wisdom. It dealt with issues that were really affecting those he was working with at the time.
So to give you another idea to think about, in some ways I could fit the classification I have given Paul. This definitely has way more potential to be the work of a heretic than a proper manifesto. Even if what I write is a huge mistake, I’d rather at least have a go at pointing out potential ways around the limitations I hear people struggle with.
The other big limitation I feel Paul’s writings have, besides not being able to operate with the main believer group of the time, was that it was not suitable for what was then considered the Asian continent.
I’ve run into plenty of people that happily talk about manga at church organisations. I’m not sure it even clicks to think about how concepts like the noble demon have relevance to the world’s function. Without that you could even go and set up a mission orphanage and wonder why it just made things worse in the area.
I believe what Jesus achieved meant that it was possible for spirit’s working with God to have the essence of scripture explained to all people, wherever and whenever. They can also as Joel was quoted, give visions to all. As far as I can tell this is where things can begin to change for the better from.
Let’s start to break this down how you could today do a generic version of what Paul did for people back then. Another comment that you made was Monty Pythonising things might help. That is definitely one modern idea with some scriptural ideas in it.
I’m assuming you are thinking a ‘Life of Brian’ vibe would help? The obvious issue is that they present a Jesus that isn’t a son of god. To match what Paul’s letters accomplished for those that didn’t understand what God has done, you need to link it into ideas that the people around you are familiar with. So I’ll call your Monty Python and raise you 1950’s caped crusader detective logic mixed in with some some decade old sci-fisms.
Here goes the next writing mistake…
Once there was a group called the Gotemites. They had dreamed of creating the perfect city, where all the citizens could live their best life. They headed out and journeyed through the land. Eventually they returned to a place where their ideal city could grow.
They spent generations sticking to the vision and fighting off outside influences to make the city. For a while it was an amazing city. Little districts each with their own purpose functioned well. The people that wanted to be there were cared for and helped to be the best part of the community that they could.
Despite having all they needed the people were tricked into being fearful. They grew discontent with the administrators that focused on keeping each of their areas running well. They were convinced that they needed many things including a mayor.
So eventually after much bitter complaining and many warnings, a mayor was chosen. For a while it went well. But eventually the Mayor realised, to keep making all the big projects happen for a city he would have to, make the people work to the bone, endlessly expand the city or put it in growing dept.
He married a wife from another city that was beautiful and made him feel like what he was greater than those around him. He was turned against the administrators becoming convinced that they were foolish and would turn the people against him.
Eventually after much persuasion from his wife he contacted a company from her city. The head of the company came. He was called the Prospenator. He was a huge man with large gold horns implanted in his bald head. But he wore a nice suit, the mayor’s wife thought he was amazing and he promised to make the city work well.
Things seemed to go well and the Prospenator made impressive cost savings by combining similar jobs or groups of different districts. As he seemed to be using the cities resources more effectively, was establishing large scale trade with other cities and was not complaining like others in the city, the Mayor favoured him more.
Because of this the Prospenator was given two struggling areas of the city to redevelop. Despite cries that they were key parts of the cities heart, he demolished them. He built two businesses in those spots.
One was a transport facility with a golden truck outside of it. It sped up trade and the growth of the city. This meant that the city needed to gather resources more effectively. The Prospenator set up a second business with a golden tractor outside of it. This company developed large scale resource extraction and processing.
The challenge of running the city got bigger too. Everything had to be done at bigger scale, faster and more efficiently. As the city grew, so did the amount of complaints.
The mayor and most of those running the city were convinced that the progress was a positive sign and that neither the people nor the administrators knew what needed to be done anymore.
The Prosepenator now only visited the city to keep his businesses thriving. But during this time he had recommended a company from Sido city. Eventually it was decided that they needed to deal with the people, before they sabotaged the cities progress.
The mayor contacted the company in Sido and soon the head of that company came as well. She was called the Huntress.
Because people were no longer trained to find the best way to be part of the city and there were more people that were struggling, there was now crime. The Huntress made a force of people to hunt down these people. Then she made facilities where these people could be more efficiently re-educated. Amongst all this, the administrators and complainers were also hunted down and dealt to.
The next major way that those with the mayor found people were interfering with their cities progress, was by wallowing when they had a health issue. To keep people working rather that re-evaluating things when health problems arose, new facilities were built. Drugs and the alteration of bodies for continued unstable work performance were just the start of what the research facilities worked on.
Various centres handed out the remedies created despite worries about how this would effect the residents overall well-being and the children that these people had. The cities was now producing sicker and more disease prone children.
The worst criminals became guinea pigs for those experiments in one of the huntresses facilities. When the products or patients were liberated from here, they reeked havoc in the city. Eventually vigilantes arose that could do what the force could not.
Things were left to get worse and an even weaker more unstable generations was born. Then Baylon city conquered Gotem, destroying it’s defences. They carried off it’s people and the resources that had been gathered.
Almost forgotten through the years, was a group that looked for the essence of the founder’s dreams. They were seen as a strange uptight bunch that were thought to live dull existences to grasp at some sort of stability. They often made strange warnings or had unusual dreams to share before being shamed back into their simple existences.
When the Gotemites were captured, one of the group ended up working as a waiter in the Baylon palace dining room. This waiter was called Nem. He’d visited Gotem and had been gutted to see it ruined and abandoned. When he got back to his job, he was unhappy and didn’t eat.
The king was used to this fellow’s calm, cheerful help. When the king heard he wasn’t sick, he asked what was wrong with him. Nem told the king about seeing his city in ruins. So despite the concerns of many in Baylon, Gotems defences were rebuilt and people began moving in again.
Many, many years later though some of the Gotemites were back in Gotem, it was under the rule of the Ron corporation. Though the people were still listening to their experts, they also hoped that another vigilante would arise to free the city.
Instead a girl called Ri wandered into one founders caves that hard been recently uncovered and was implanted with a founders child. This caused some drama when Jo, the guy she was going to marry, found out. After one the founders helpers came from the other dimension and explained what had happened. The young couple went back to Jo’s hometown.
Ri gave birth to the founders kid on a farm just outside a rough district of the town Jo had grown up in. The kid grew up to became wise beyond his years and really knowledgeable about things to do with the founders. He helped builders for a job. He got to the age where people thought he should have a family.
Instead the founders kid went to the believer called Ohn that dunked people in a wilderness river to symbolise that they were going to get their lives cleaned up and back on track with the founder.
A founder helper transformed into a spirit bird to cross to the other dimension. Settling onto the founder kid’s spirit and it could help him and give more access to the founder dimension. While the gateway was open his dad yelled through the gateway that this was his beloved son and he was really pleased with him.
The founders had enemies that they had kicked out of their dimension. The king of those that had been kicked out came with wild animals to destroy or trick the kid.
The bird helper got the kid to head further into the wilderness away from the crowds at the river. There other helpers came from their dimension to help deal with the animals and the tricks of the fallen’s king. After forty days the founder’s kid made it out of the wilderness.
The kid went to the Gotem docks and started by calling some rough guys that had a family fishing business. He called them to be people fishers to restore the founders vision. They became the first members of his team. They left their dad to run the business and followed the kid.
He spent the next three years with a growing team that taught about the founders vision to those that needed to hear. When people were open to it, acknowledging how they’d messed up, sickness and fallen helpers could be removed from them.
The fallen often messed with the world to end the kid and what he was doing. To stop this and meet people’s need, the helpers would fight and make things right. Among other things the weather was fixed and food was created seemingly out of thin air.
The kid had been travelling through many cities. He and his trainees taught and helped the other dimension to do many cool things for people. After three years of this one of his followers was pissed and betrayed the kid to the followers of the fallen.
They got the kid killed by the Ron corporation justice process.
The rules of the other dimension had been broken. The founder brought the kid back to life a couple of days later. The kid came back to the team he had trained. He told them to stay in Gotem for the festival. He soon finished what he needed to do and took an elevator to the other dimension.
In the other dimension, what the kid had done was used to let the helpers transform better. When the followers of the founder met for the festival, a portal to the other dimension was opened in the sky. Helpers had transformed into flames and went to settle on the team of people at the festival.
The team were then able to speak other languages and people passing by all heard what the founders had done in their own languages. A challenging talk was given to a crowd that stopped to rubber neck. That day many people joined the team.
A new group of administrators was formed to care for this team. It grew even more. More heard about the founders awesome vision. Many were healed, freed and cared for as this group grew.
Their was a guy called Sor. He was part of a crew of traditionalists hunting down the followers. He would throw men or women in prison if he caught them.
One day Sor was walking down the road and the founder called from the other dimension. Sor was shocked to hear he had been working against the founders. He became blind after being in contact with the founder message system.
He was sent to one of the believers that thought Sor was playing some sort of trick. The founder let him know it was fine to pray for healing. Sor was then able to see again. He became known as Por. He then started spreading the awesome vision that caused much confusion with the traditionalists.
As the followers were hunted, they fled further and further from Gotem. As they went they told about the founders vision and new teams of followers were made in other towns and cities.
Por went and helped some of these teams and made it easier for teams in other countries to understand the basics of the founders vision in their own ideas. He travelled and wrote many letters.
A great many years later, the Ron corporation had made fake organisations across the land to hold those that might follow the founders. It made a system to make people fearful and have difficult existences.
The Ron corporation had merged with those running the cities. They collected money off the people leaving those not part of the corrupt system, struggling or in poverty. Many rebels rose but none freed people from the corporation.
A dude in the Ron Corporation spent many years struggling with how their collection of money and presentation of stories was ruining people. He wrote a corporate jargon free criticism of the fake organisations and put it on the organisation notice board.
This criticism writing was copied and spread through the land eventually it was used as a basis for a war, but it still didn’t free people like the founders vision had.
Things got worse and the rulers supported the Ron Corporation for even bigger collections so that most people in the land were suffering.
Eventually enough people began talking about the vision and making an alternative to the fake organisation. These people were targeted and made to seem as terrorists to all those in the land. They set up a group of farming families out of the cities.
Despite arrests and prejudice the group grew. Many were killed claiming they were enemies of the organisation that claimed they didn’t have the true god. Despite more hunts they made guidelines to help believers get out of the Corporation brainwashing that they had been living in.
The farming believers fled the city. Eventually they split into two groups and fled further. But what they had done had destroyed the acceptance of corporate subjugation and refocused people on the the founders vision and working with the helpers.
Again a great many years passed and the companies slowly worked to discredit anything and anyone that was related to the founder. The farming believers were portrayed as an irrelevant incestuous lot that didn’t know the teaching of the founders.
Corporates would work as best they could to make sure the hardworking farming believer’s products were taken into their system. They also sent agents and worked at creating power struggles around the very guidelines that had freed them from corporate brainwashing and helped them see the founders vision again.
As ruler/corporate brainwashing had refocused on a new sort of spirit ignoring, argument developed wisdom, a different type of spiritual seeking believers arose.
Things got worse for many years and ruler/corporates took credit for the progress that had happened in the world. Rulers and corporates focused on keeping people trapped or addicted in their communities.
Believers would be allowed to exist as long as they only followed beginner interpretations of the vision. They were left to work hard and serve the corporate system, its believers and its puppets. Those that looked to the essence of the vision had other believers turned against them or had the system turn against them till they crumbled.
With the fake church taking other dimension resources, damage that had been done to the world affecting the founder and the distress of seeing people in torment, the founder went into a coma. Some of the helpers put the founder in a sprio-chest and started on the long journey to the judging area of the other dimension. The helpers were a bit lost on what to do even as the kid helped them.
Eventually a group of believers went back to Gotem. They were distressed by believers arguing or going with the flow as the world got worse. They found the vigilante computer in the ruins under an old mansion. They rebuilt it and asked it how to help people see the founders vision when it had been split into laws, great news, letters, criticisms, guidelines and spirit seeking teaching.
The computers lights flashed strange patterns, tape wheels spun bleeps played out. Then it printed out an answer.
It gave one answer no many time they asked about uniting believers. It was to find out why the corporates were pissed off with the book of vision even though they were sure they had corrupted it. The computer hinted that inverting the ten golden rules and helping people to work backward through them and be the starting point to link all the writing about the vision together.
While they were there, they also asked how they could fix the world, this finally gave a different answer.
It said that the followers that would grow from the first advice would become the bridge for working people out of the latest spiritual captivity.
The price for freedom had already been paid when the other dimension’s laws were broken. This time they would be able to train farming believers while still in captivity. This time they would make a ‘priesthood’ that would serve everyone, allowing helpers and the scattered believers to see the vision like never before.
The way they cared for each other and brought out the best in the environment around them would only be the beginning. Things that had been stagnated by ideas of finance or economy would be rebuilt with carts and boats through local workshops.
The pieces of the puzzle both in terms of the cultures of cities and the pieces that the vision had been split into would become clear. The pieces would help the land grow as a whole emerging out of the restriction it had been burdened under.
The final cities that followed the teachings of the noble demons would finally get the essence of the vision explained as it had previously been blocked by vision writing being focused on other cities.
This would bring about completeness and peace like never before. The corporates would try one last time to claim the credit for this. Their cries that the founder was dead, existing has hopeless and that power was everything would become blatant.
The innocent would be preyed upon like never before. Laws of people and the universe would be broken making past domination seem feeble.
Then the judgement of the founder would no longer be delayed.
He would return and his son would clear out those that were supporting the domination.
The land would have finally fulfilled its purpose of providing awesome news.
There we go, how’s that for a mistake?
I feel the biggest issue around faith narratives is that they struggle to capture things in human narrative.
To do things well I feel an ‘other dimensional’ narrative would actually be needed.
Right, I guess I’d better work to check I’ve covered your points.
As far as seeing the original writing as a manifesto; if not clear now, in time this will probably become more obvious as one of two main conversation starters I will experiment with.
I suppose assuming disillusionment of someone that isn’t a regular believer things simple for people. When I was younger it might have been closer to how things were, but these days I’ll slowly work through things with help.
I’m sure by the time I’ve gone through the questions properly this will be plenty heavy. I’ll probably still leave the document in its trashy ‘outline’ state to create more conversation.
You mention I haven’t told you how to think about God in the outline.
Why should you be told how to think about God?
Um, I had a skateboard accident as a kid and smashed most of my two front teeth out. It’s meant I’ve had ongoing dental work. I think that’s about as relevant as translating dezahnite into German.
You have concerns about using strong language in ‘doctrine’ documents.
I have concerns about apathy and people being trapped in religion.
For these circumstances and in terms of it relating to a ‘modern audience’ I think swearing works well as a ‘hook’ function.
Maybe you could write something for those more concerned with being ‘holy’ if they are on your heart.
So you’ve heard people say the church is over and think I’m one of them. Have you heard people talk about patching old wine-skins?
This document doesn’t fix anything, if I’m lucky it is more like a seed. Sharing with people’s struggles and helping makes the difference.
I hope the ‘worldview’ is more of a stimulus for people to start thinking about what is lacking in it and how things could be. People that have small worldviews can focus on getting things done. I was chatting with another backpacker. His world view consisted of the Spanish eating, pooping and sex model. He got stuff done including farming and cooking nice food over coals.
Yep using the phrase ‘another universe’ in a doctrine writing would seem pretty strange to someone accepting things they are told. That could be the subject of an entire letter. To ground this let’s start with a question. Do you think the Council of Nicaea was the first time that the books of the Bible were discussed for suitability?
Read the start of Genesis and even with the language of how it talks about God it is obvious that it is a separate writing tacked on the front of the records like the genealogies and some teaching points scattered throughout. Having Job moved from there to a wisdom book is also odd.
To aim for an discussion statement;
Even the Torah has clear signs of censoring to let the believers think earth is the only universe.
From what I can tell things like the first small book of the Torah and the reluctant later addition of when Sir’s angel told the Israelites they’d messed up (just before Joshua’s death) seems to point in this direction for framing the way things were going.
It’s a bit of a stretch but you could say that the kingdom prophecies have things that are a bit strange if it was just for the nations of the time. Then again it’s less of a stretch than some established teachings.
I guess I’m stabbing at the idea that leaders adjusted the Bible when wisdom teachings gave a better insight into the worlds origin than being told that everything was fine and they were the centre of the only universe.
I guess this is a decent point to state that I don’t have theological training or divine revelation straight from Sir God. I am working through language analysis and by watching how the doctrine people around me has affected how they exist.
As I was thinking about this more I found Job the most useful place to come back to. As God is questioning Job He asks him if he was there for the creation of the earth. It is a bit strange from the start Sir God is building a treasury of ‘ice weaponry’ if fallen angels are just a glitch of allowing free will.
Despite not explaining where the angels gathered at the start came from, Sir God also doesn’t claim to create things in the universe that he has studied like the spring of seas, walking in search of the depths, the gates of death and the doors of the shadow of death.
If you look at modern stories focusing on the chaos of the troubles across space I would guess there is two other reasons this has been left out. One to avoid despair of things that seem too powerful and threatening to the faithless. The other is that it could add fuel to tainted spiritual forces.
Jesus quotes Isaiah about the necessity of explaining certain things in cryptic stories even in his time. So that some people wouldn’t see what was right in-front of them and would hear without understanding.
How’s this for another conversation point;
The creation versus evolution debate seems to have come from people taking as truth, writing that was there to protect them from despair.
Getting back to the aspect that writings needed to manage a group that would be fragmented, lets talk about another issue glossed over. In some ways you could simplify stability versus truth was the core issue that splits Paul and Silas from the rest of the church.
People like Barnebus were working with the main group of appointed leaders. It is easy to agree he was a well respected leader that encouraged and made things work well in the main group.
Paul was chosen to make himself useful as well and deals with problems ideas that have become like the un-fragmented version of current science and academics.
I feel he deals with breaking through the ideas of wisdom at the time by using Jesus as transactional battering ram or the church as a model of real growth. He didn’t shy away from dealing with things as they were, in fact he might have been a debate addict. When arrested and given a chance to have his case dismissed, he takes it to the next level of the justice system.
For grounding this in scripture let’s deal with concerns how I’m treating Paul and circumcision teachings.
People came to one of the churches Paul was at and wanted to add the requirement for male believers to be circumcised.
The usual church line I hear in churches is that Paul, that would tell everything like it was, was having a off week but could have put them in place if he’d wanted.
Instead he sends a message back to the main group. This is the only time I am aware of it being recorded about him doing this on an issue.
They send a letter back saying that circumcision is not necessary for salvation. It would be pointlessly burdening those people.
When he and Silas split to help a struggling group of believers, they take Timothy with them and Paul circumcises him.
For doctrine sake you could easily make a case that if people have been struggling to help in churches and having difficulty communicating with leadership, then circumcision is a valid option. The other thing that you would add is it would only be relevant for men raised by ‘worldly wisdom’.
How’s that for an example that is passed off one way to keep things simple for making a safe united group of believers?
Again to go beyond a distanced doctrine view, I felt I was trapped and frustrated with finding a way to talk with people including leaders in church about scripture. I felt convicted to get circumcised and could. So I did.
I’m glad God has been so generous to let me start over and help turn things around in the world around me.
Circumcision is irrelevant for salvation.
In my situation it has helped me grow and made me more useful for helping. I think it is better to potentially fuck my life up if it lets me help more when I go where I’m lead.
If it is not already obvious I haven’t thrown out Paul’s letters. I want to redo what he did for the people around me. Jesus says that we can do beyond what has already been achieved. I hope I can at least contribute to doing this in a way that rebuilds the vineyard at the same time.
You think people will be trapped with the existing problems around who God is and how to refer to Him. That is true if you deal with things at an organisation level.
Writing like this and relating to smaller groups can get past this.
Jesus got beyond the issue you seem to be claiming impossible by telling cryptic stories to huge crowds.
The main reason for going with Sir God is because people still use those words. Have you heard anyone say, “Excuse me my lord,” recently? Sir also has the connotation of one knighted for outstanding achievement for people these days.
The names for God that you gave to add as reference are human names for God. They were avoided because of the way they frame God or as you call it ‘add baggage’.
Mate, doctrine exploration is heavy enough and now you want to do human politics too. Are you looking to suck all the joy out of life?
It was interesting how you ignored the other Zondezhan points, so I’ll take those as accepted. I’ll pick a story about things unfolding around Elijah’s time to deal with the questions you did make.
Micaiah tells the Israelites two kings about what happened in Sir’s throne room with heaven’s army waiting. One of heaven’s army says that he will go and be a lying spirit and get the prophets to lead the Israelites to be slaughtered by the Syrians.
Before I go any further I want to point out how strange the trinity concept comes across in people explanations through an exaggeration. I feel people take about the affects of what happened when the feast of bread became Pentecost really strangely.
On Pentecost they may as well say that the heaven’s opened and flame-jesus came down. It shot out it’s mind control cables into the heads of the believers and they told the people around them how things were in all of their languages.
Angels have the ability to take different forms in scripture. You are probably more familiar with Sir’s angel in Moses time. Again this could be the subject of an entire letter. Regardless, the angel could pass messages in dreams, create flame bush communication links to heaven, come in human form or take fire and smoke form.
To contrast fallen angels that are acting maliciously; the serpent’s form was downgraded to a snake after he messed with humans. Yet he could still turn up before God when those of heaven were required to present themselves.
Since you seem to need explanation on non-organisational views of holy spirits, think of it as a new form that spirits could take rather than a being in that mind link machine in the stories about mutants. To be silly imagine it like a video game and Jesus’ resurrection and ascension unlocked a new form for spirits to use. Then once once Jesus was back in heaven it was researched and available to be unlocked at Pentecost.
To use the reference from Joel it meant that spirits could help by giving visions and dreams for people to turn their existence around. In other words every angel in heaven’s army has had the ability to guide people out of captivity to make houses of freedom and justice since that day. It has a big downside for Sir God though.
Right, it sounds like I have to start at a worldly point of view for the follower section ideas. Maybe putting Israelite as a description would have been better than Jew. If you wanted you could research Jews in Hollywood for a modern worldly take.
How about this, in the country I came from when you are growing up you go overseas to see the world if you can. I was in Uzbekistan. Jews there in the past had caused interest as they would quit their job on the sixth day of the week and find a new job the next week. They also recorded and preserved the music of the people there.
If I’d been smart enough to put Israel maybe you would have made the connection. Israel was originally called Jacob. As the youngest child he was both not going to be inheriting much and not seen as a real man by his dad.
He was taught by his mum to do something about that. Then when he was sent to his relatives the bible doesn’ even bother to record all of the ten ways that his uncle tried to screw him over. Maybe using creative wasn’t the right word, how would you describe counter-cunning?
Since you seemed to be interested in talking politics maybe I’ll put one thought that fits from a conversation that came up a couple of years ago. The first point is that most countries seem to have governments that are controlling things in a way that is not related to people’s wishes.
Beyond that there seems to be a push to make Jews look bad. Around here they are constantly accused of being indiscriminate killers and persecuted in big cities. Yet there is little talk of suicide bombers walking into crowds in their towns.
There is condemnation of public facilities being bombed and people going hungry in their enemies country. But the criticism rarely goes to the country hiding its military structures behind women children and the sick. Or diverting food from getting to the public and stockpiling it for the military.
From what I’ve heard this victim reporting of one side and ignoring of the other extends beyond the immediate dispute area.
Oh yeah, the scripture reading point is a bit confusing, sorry about that. I meant the titles that are like Sunday school topic dividers through out the books of some Bibles. Say for when Genesis is divided into the third chapter being titled ‘The Temptation and fall of Man’. Or Isaiah being split into a thirty third chapter and titled ‘A Prayer in Deep Distress’. Then book called Mark when split into a seventh chapter is titled ‘ Defilement Comes from Within.
I find the titles are at best overly negative and often disjointed from the stories. At worst they give things the feel of a weird soap opera or patronise whoever is being written about. The exercise is getting page size printable labels, cutting them into strips and then further cutting down to cover the titles.
I did this with all books in a New American Standard Bible and for the writings I’m calling the Dezanite basics in a New King James Version. Then the annoying thing is that I found out that the King James Version that the Mennonites get don’t have these titles in.
Maybe the prayer bit wasn’t the best thought through. If I am going to chat to people frustrated by doctrine and feeling trapped in organisations I think this leave it as is allowing a point to connect.
Years ago I would pray like that in my heart in churches.
Hmm, holiness you say.
If I was going to be true to scripture I would have chased people out of the building with a whip. I didn’t realise it was part of a dark design. To keep both the clueless and the sensitive trapped together.
I’ll make this point, in the country I grew up, a lot of Missionaries were well known for swearing when they first showed up even though they were there to spread awesome news and to make sure the colonisation’s affects on natives were minimised.
In reality I swear very little, this is part of the design of the document.
I may as well still use it as a talking point;
Is seeming proper or helping those in need closer to holiness?
I’m glad you think I’m generous, if you serve a generous God you can afford to be. Be careful, for people that have had their loads lightened, putting stickers through the Bible to read it all, getting circumcised, simplifying life to a couple of backpacks for travelling to find answers and putting up strange documents on the internet are all small steps.
I guess the point I was hoping people would think about is often doing their week and then church stuff in between leaves them exhausted. To switch to the old testament extreme, followers were only expected to show up three times a year.
It’s easy to find ways to back this up. Jesus said if you have issues with people and are at the temple; go sort that out first then come back. Or if you are doing a forty day wilderness escape, it’s a bit silly to head back into a crowded city to keep up appearances at an organisation.
Okay, the questions for the building section are interesting.
Let me ask the other question for people trying to start from scratch why would they burden themselves with bigger buildings. You can get some pretty flash sheds and tents if you want to split hairs.
What is the purpose of having a building in a first place.
Okay you’ve seen the word sacrifice and got caught up on that. When I left to go travelling I gave my tools to the Menzshed. There are plenty of things that could be sacrificed for others instead, people clutter their own places up.
Convesation starter, what if I see the medical prolonging of unhealthy animals lives as the opposite of ‘old testament’ sacrifice?
There are a lot of people that are spending thousands on animals to keep them alive whether pets or livestock. The burning of the prize animal and focusing on the breeding of a healthy flock could be a handy process.
Then there is the other extreme where flocks are so big and a farmer might pull over to see why the latest cow has died. Once that’s done drive on and leave it for the wild animals. If the priesthood is getting into all the world do you think culling unhealthy animals or making secure compost heaps for dead animals will be part of their duties?
Your messy tent question was interesting. The tabernacle was set up to avoid this problem. The altar was in a courtyard in front of it.
If you get rid of a sign of death why, would you put another in its place?
Okay God’s given us a much better deal than the old law system, why do you want to throw the holidays out as well? Going back to Pentecost it happened on the bread festival. What do you not find relevant about the first blossoms, harvest, being freed from the world by the lamb’s protection, blowing trumpets to celebrate when God has led people to victory over messed up enemies..?
Is it more relevant to you to fit into the rhythm of the people around you?
Changing the way I reference God is a lot for people to process and see if it helps them better understand things. Jesus is still talked about in modern enough terms. This is designed as a discussion starter, technically ‘empowered spirits’ or ‘clean spirits’ could work.
I have been careful at hinting at this only. I feel that it upsets people because God shares His power and a lot of people like the lie that they have a direct line to God, instead of beginning from scripture that we can pray to God and have Jesus pass it on (or intercede).
Why would you ask me if you are in God’s family?
Do you work for the best for God (I’d write love if it didn’t have such messed up connotations these days)? Do you work for the best for others while doing the same for yourself? Have you chosen to be baptised and are working with clean spirit (how’s that for a weird term for someone redeemed and settled on by a purified spirit)?
Looking at how you thought you could help for the ‘fellowship’ section I’m not sure I have prayed and fasted enough to be able to bridge the gap for the first points.
To stick to discussion starting aims;
Unless people are called to an organisation, Dezahnite theory would suggest people become church hoppers.
The idea behind church hopping is to get access to all the pieces that make up God’s awesome news and become familiar with a variety of traps so you can get past them.
Um, this is embarrassing but it looks like I only had an old incomplete version saved before I reinstalled linux, so this is all that will be here.
Dezhanite Drafts 